Fabienne Schmuki

HELVETIAROCKT: MUSICIANS IN CONVERSATION SEASON 3 FABIENNE SCHMUKI Helvetiarockt is a Swiss national association raising awareness about gender inequality in the music industry while supporting promoting and connecting professional female inter non-binary and trans artists. Through its grassroots projects such as producing, DJing, band workshops and songwriting camps, it offers platforms for young people of all levels to dis-cover music and be part of an empowering community find out more on our website hel-vetiarockt.ch, sign up for the newsletter and follow us on social media. Musicians in Con-versation is sponsored by SUISA The Cooperative Society of Music authors and Publishers in Switzerland SUISA is celebrating its 100 year anniversary in 2023. Hi everyone my name is Natalia Anderson and I'm a presenter content creator and DJ in this episode I speak with Fabienne Schmuki who is one of the CEOs at Irascible music and Irascible Records we discussed the relationship between artist and label when to invest in physical copies of your music and Fabienne also shares how she was able to overcome self-doubt to take on the role of CEO of Irascible. Fabienne also answers an audience question and don't forget if you have a question simply send a direct message to Helve-tiarockt on Instagram in the meantime here's my conversation with Fabienne Hi Fabienne thank you so much for joining me today on musicians in conversation hello Natalia thanks for the invitation I'm going to start with the first question that I ask every-body and that is how did you get started on your musical journey I guess the right thing to say is with my father's passion for music he was just I mean he was born in 1951 so he was a teenager in the late 60s and he had just a very good musical taste that I had to say he was a big fan of Leonard Cohen for instance he was obviously into the Beatles and you know Rolling Stones because it was just the era and I mean he also listened to Dire Straits and Pink Floyd don't get me wrong it wasn't all great, but who said Dire Straits isn’t great, maybe I just have you know a trauma but well however he listened to a lot of music and it was just a very central part of his life. What did it look for you was it just music on all the time in the house or did he have a massive record collection, it wasn't massive but I think it was just well selected it was really a passion for him so I guess he passed it on and then when I was a teenager I was born in 83 so actually my time was the late 90s which was-n't all great but luckily instead of Limp Bizkit you know I listened to grunge and smoked pot with my boyfriend and listened to Radiohead so basically yeah I Limp Bizkit. I'm sorry no offense no but I do have it's horrible to talk about music because you're always of-fends someone you know it's I mean it's personal taste honestly even at the time the Limp Bizkit thing was a bit divisive let's say it was a bit you either love it or you hate it oh yeah but I had moments with my Limp Bizkit. I mean I also have my guilty pleasures you know it's not you know I also listen to oh I had this Mark ‘Oh do you remember Mark ‘Oh? this horrible house DJ guy from Germany maybe I don't know if it reached the UK yeah may-be it did, what was the big song Tears Don't Cry can I ask you to sing it no absolutely not Yeah so I just listened to a lot of music that was the beginning of my musical Journey so how does that translate to you starting a career in music you started working as a sort of press officer was that what was that the first thing you did in music or was there another role that you had? it was the first thing you know as a professional thing I did in music I never really had plans to have a career in music I mean that wasn't on my mind and it also wasn’t the dream and I really didn't want to go into you know what they called showbiz at the time or no I studied journalism actually communication and journalism I had an opportunity at this magazine to write about to do reviews and you know right do some interviews with artists and that was you know my first connection with the industry basically so I asked for CDs and I asked for interview appointments etc. but from the other side obviously as a journalist yeah and there amongst all the labels and the agencies who sent us CDs and music there was this one distribution Irascible or Irasible and I just always liked you know what they sent me it was oh you know that's good I never heard of that band but it's really good etc. so at one point I went to the Bad Bonn Kilbi Festival which is a is a very nice small Festival in Fribourg and I saw that this distribution actually had a stand there selling their vinyl and some CDs back then and I was oh I think I emailed with you know one of these guys and I went there and said hi and talk to them and they were really nice and so on and then well back at the journalism job they stopped the magazine and then I looked for a job just in PR or journalism and then I got this from this distribution that I got to know back then, I got an email saying hey we're looking for someone doing PR 50% and I was okay if I have to do PR that's the one thing I don't want to do it for any video or you know but if I can do it for music I think it would be something I would do for a couple of years that was my idea and that was the start so it was I mean the only company you know I ever worked for in music is the one I'm working for now exactly it's not a very adventurous career in music when it comes to different employers it just turned out to be the right choice can you describe to me what is it that a label does what does a label do? that's a very difficult question because I think every label does kind of the same but then in a very different way so I mean just on paper a label is nothing else than just a brand you know you just put a stamp on the record and you can say this was released on the my label so it doesn't being a labeler creating a la-bel doesn't mean you have to do anything basically you know their labels were just you know musicians who want to release their records and they create their own labels and they anyway pay for everything and do everything on their own so it's a very normal thing for them to do and it's a label you know so they can also sign order bands on their label and just say hey you pay for all your stuff yourself you pay if you're pressing an EPR but you can just appear under my label so maybe you can also you know profit from the network I have for instance that could already be a label so there isn't really a definition but I mean of course back in the days when you saw that when the major label started appearing it was I mean that came from the publishing side first it was music publishing who brought together songwriters and performers and then to kind of press records that that just started with the with the with the publication of cassettes or CDs later etc. LP’s of course in the beginning they basically were your bank you know kind of giving you mon-ey so you could record an album and and they would invest in your in your promotion and your marketing so this was really something that I think it started in the 50s or so with actually record labels putting out records before it was just publishing companies who published your work but then with the physical product that there needed to be some-one who paid for the product of course you know suddenly there wasn't just live shows and rights to administer but you needed someone to pay for the pressing to pay for the for the LP’s so that was the origin of the of the record label. What does your day-to-day look like? I don't really have a day-to-day luckily that's why I love the job that's why I want to inspire people that this could be a job that they could actually do, oh yes everyone I mean no not everyone but I think it doesn't really answer your question but something that I didn't understand in the beginning and I just came to find out about this while do-ing the job is that aside from being you know totally into music and liking the industry and the people it's the pace it's the pace of the industry and it's the pace of the or especially the job that we do or I do. We're a small company, we’re an independent company we’re very flat hierarchically so I mean yes we are two bosses but then again you know we all earn the same it's kind of you know just someone needs to take decisions but in the end we're a group of people who are into music and it's so dynamic that's so if you don't want to work as a functionaire where everything takes two years you want to work in the music yeah but you can't for us it's really we take a decision and then two days later we try to you know make it happen or it's I really love that energy it's if you want to have an office job which is not an office job because you do it's not a joke you spend a lot of time at the office but at the same time you spend time at the office listening to music talking to artists going to shows going to festivals meeting up with people doing whatever being maybe becoming part of you know other associations which are also inflicted with him so it's I mean kind of if you the mindset of the independent music industry which is something you first of all of course have to get to know and you have to know if you're if you can also handle this kind of it's also super chaotic you know it's very unstructured often, also working with artists is super it's very unstructured because you I mean for me that's a big part of my job not structuring the artist but kind of structuring the way that the release is being planned and structuring the way that the career is being planned etc. so it's a lot of I don't know in German there's that word Vermittlung so it's kind of education in a way so for me it's really it's that I try to understand or maybe translation more I try to understand what you as an artist want to tell me her you know anyone and I try to translate that into the media or whatever a press shot or a press text or so it's really you go through someone like me or you go through an agency to find the words to what you want to say or find the you know make something that's maybe abstract in your head practical for someone who needs to understand what you're doing it's all touches on my next question about the relationship of a label and an artist what you sort of mentioned a bit before but what does that kind of look like how often do you talk how often do you check in with each other that depend that's different from artists or or band to band I mean I think the first thing actually is it a solo artist or is it a band already that is if you have a team to discuss what you're doing it's already totally different from you being you know the person who produces everything or who is the band basically or most of the of the solo artists need or want to have someone to share their ideas with and to participate you know in the in the process of creating something so I would say generally with solo artists we're way more in touch how much are you involved in the creative process of an artist if an artist is work-ing maybe even on their second album and they deliver it to you are you in a position to say oh that's not quite what I was thinking or is it that's what they want to do I'm going to promote it I'm gonna get it out there usually not just me but we as a team as the people who are part of Irascible records we do give feedback only when asked or when we ask if it's okay I wouldn't I wouldn't listen to a demo and just you know especially with criticism of course I say hey I love it you know if I love it but yeah I wouldn't say hey this totally sucks and you know you should do something else exactly so when it's clear that we're allowed to give feedback and the artist wants us to give feedback then we do and the good thing about I guess probably every company but also for us it's we all have different backgrounds so we have people who play in bands themselves or a used to play in bands or who you know who wrote music and so I'm more from the public relations side of things or I know more about yeah who to get in touch with and who to connect you with etc. so we can kind of give different opinions that would give a broad yeah I would say broad feedback in a way yeah so I think lots of bands are appreciated but then what they do with it is kind of their choice I mean that's I think that's very much also the spirit of an independent label the artist comes to us with a finished record I mean we do get to listen to demos and we do give feedback but then it's if we say yes we say yes and then we release it even though maybe there's two songs which we wouldn't have put on the record you know it's really more about the process also a long established relationship up to now we haven't had a band who left us on the label so it's kind of we want to have a continuing relationship with them. 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For further informa-tion go to musicdirectory.ch What does it look like when you want to sign an artist and you did mention about an art-ist not leaving you yet but let's just keep it as an open they haven't left you, but I've al-ways wondered about that kind of you know the start and the continuation of a rela-tionship and then maybe what the end of relationship looks like, is it is it almost project based do you say I've seen you I think you're great we'd love to represent you or have you on our label for this project and if it works out let's do another one is it something that or what does the beginning look first of all now with new signings it's it can be anything it can be bands I mean we do get a lot of music sent you know by bands who ask for ei-ther just PR or maybe they want to have a distribution maybe they want to be on the label we always listen to everything and then we tell them what we could imagine you know offering them so we could say someone asks us to be on the label and we listen to it and we think Hmm could be something for the label but not now I mean it's too fresh or you know we haven't met people we just kind of want to be you know kind of familiar with them before we sign them on the label and then we just maybe offer them you know a promotion or just a licensing without pressing records or whatever it could be dif-ferent that's a good thing about being able to offer various services and can you see how to click how you click as well in that sort of relationship you can see is this somebody that I would actually want to work with in a deeper exactly so it could be that it could all could also be us you know there's this band called Bat Bait they won the Demo Tape Clinic of the M4Music festival in 2021 and the band was there to get their prize and I had heard that song and I just started talking to them and I said well if you're interested in having a coffee and you know hearing what we do let me know and then we had a coffee a few weeks later and now they're on the label so it's also sometimes us actively looking for or talking to them or also someone recommending someone to us or a band maybe you know one person of a band who starts a solo project who has worked with us before who would then approach us for the label with the solo project or her so yeah an-ything is possible yeah going back to distribution for new artists or even just people who are working in the industry nowadays how important is it nowadays to have a physical thing that you sell whether it's a vinyl whether it's CD well sometimes people I've seen people going back to tapes actually have you seen that recently tapes making a resur-gence and how important is it what should people consider before they take that deci-sion. For touring bands I think it's absolutely substantial I mean that's most of the bands who don't have enormous fees you know who can't really yeah where touring is not prof-itable, by selling merchandise they can if it goes well make it profitable and so I would recommend every artist or band who tours to still produce whatever CD that depending on the genre depending on the audience you attract what genre works well for what is there a is there a formula I wouldn't say there's a formula but I think it's a general kind of understanding that electronic music you know works very well on digital platforms and if you then decide to merge to sell something on merchandise either you sell digital you know codes or something you print them on an article etc or you or you or you sell I guess vinyl, just vinyl is for collectors and it's what you know if someone goes to show off of an electronic artist it's probably not someone who still has a CD player I mean kind of age-wise etc so the question is more when who or when do you produce CDs and that's really I think for more mainstream audiences but physical distribution I think is you know most of the bands who decide to press CDs, LPs whatever for live purposes or merchandise pur-poses they you know it just doesn't cost way more to press more so in the end you just press maybe 100 more and you say I also try to sell them through the shops or mail order or bandcamp or so I think for independent artists it still makes sense to have physical releas-es especially when they're touring right that is some very good information there definitely I think that's incredibly useful to our listeners We mentioned this a bit before about Irascible records and Irascible music you took over from your former boss so you started there doing press worked there for a number of years but not that many years before you actually took over how did that journey happen and where did you almost I suppose find the confidence to say well I can run this ship I know what I'm doing? it was really an a chain of coincidences I mean as I said in the be-ginning I kind of for me it was okay if I have to you know change the side and change from journalism to PR music is the only thing I can imagine doing and then I could do this for a couple of years because I'm sure doing PR in music is getting boring after five years also sending out press releases etc. that you wouldn't do this for more than five years so for me it was really kind of hey I like the company I really love the people I mean first of all they took me on I started doing job it was a great experience but content wise or from what I did I didn't think I was going to last there you know for 10 or more years it was really a step and then I always dreamed of one day going back to journalism and you know maybe if the world would change working for a cool print magazine writing about music and then I don't know it just the company and the people just totally grew on me I just I really and for the first time I realized hey it's I mean it's a job but it really doesn't feel a job I didn't yeah that's literally the golden egg that's the thing that everyone's inside yeah and it's I mean my boyfriend is totally jealous because he was hey how you know you found that how lucky are you I was 25 I didn't I didn't plan my you know next 15 years career I just started working for a distribution and an agency so it was really that the confidence I got from my former boss who was in Lausanne I had an office with my colleague back then in Lucerne so I commuted from Zurich to Lucerne I got to know a lot of Lucerne musi-cians it kind of also opened up a new a new world it wasn't so Zurich based everything I used to do before so I kind of I really enjoyed that thing of there was Lausanne I could practice my French you know all these things and then I started hiring they asked me to go up with my percentage I did I don't know 60% and 70% and I did a Masters on the side and then 2014 I believe it was our former boss called up one day and said so I did this for 13 years now I'm gonna open up a restaurant I've had enough I have this oppor-tunity and you know and then my colleague Chris who's now leading the Lausanne of-fice and all the whole sales team and all the Strategic things together with me he called me up and he was you know what we should do this together for me it was really like this was the encouragement I needed I wouldn't have done it alone I wouldn't have said Would you even have thought did you even did it even cross your mind that… it did cross my mind but I wouldn't have had the courage because I only I did it for five years and I did PR and of course I got to see a lot of the other things that they did but also I am I'm still up to now I'm horrible with numbers I thought oh God if I have to do bookkeeping and oh I'm gonna die yeah so there was so much about it where I thought I don't think I'm up for it but when we started talking about it I don't know it just formed this idea just formed into something that was just we could actually do it just felt well it's an opportunity I don't think I'll ever you know have something live this happening again and then which is basi-cally after a week or so we just went to our former boss and we said well can we I mean would you to pass it on to us however and he was he loved it he was like yeah I mean nothing better than that I don't need to sell or stop or whatever and he's a very generous person he's a super generous person and he's a super fair person and I have a lot of re-spect for him and I think a lot of things that I that I could not have imagined myself you know doing in terms of you know self-esteem and just kind of thinking that I that I could be you know my own boss and it's also due to him always encouraging me so he after two years and his restaurant going well was you know you can also have a part of my shares and you just do this thing wow let's just do it so it was a lot of luck days I mean it's luck but also I think it speaks to who you are and your character that somebody believes in you and knows that you're capable of it and I think it's something wonderful to have that kind of relationship almost a mentor person who who's I see something in you I think you can do it and you know passing on the yeah I mean that's it's always so it's nothing you can say about yourself right but it's something that I do hear also why I was hired when they looked for someone was because you're not you know another rock dude you know with the black leather jackets or whatever so I think it's just because also they saw I could probably you know for instance networking is really something I've always done and I love doing it so they saw that and they knew that they weren't that was not their favorite thing so I was also kind of maybe an opportunity in their eyes to yeah kind of spread the word about what we do etc. so yeah how many other women or FINTA folk (FINTA being Female, intersex, trans non-binary and agenda folk) have you come across in a similar role to you and I suppose moving from that question also could be how do we get more FINTA folk in a similar position to you. I met a few or I met some women in a similar or the same position but mainly international-ly it is sadly in Switzerland there really aren't many then there's lots of women doing awe-some jobs but not leading a record label so how can we fix this Fabienne how can we fix it what in your opinion can be done is it a case of having mentors or having some kind of and I don't I know you mentioned before you didn't have confidence I'm wondering if that remember you said you wasn't sure that you could do it was a confidence thing and we mentioned off air about this Workshop that I attended at the weekend with other female and FINTA folk and one recurring theme was this sort of confidence. Confidence in in your own ability and confidence to just go out there and push yourself and I'm wonder-ing if this is a common theme in the industry which could lead to people not putting them-selves forward for these jobs or is it just lack of opportunity I don't know what the answer is I mean first of all it's not like there are plenty of these jobs free you know so they're not so many I mean there's only a handful of record labels who work as a business where we can actually work and you know live from it even though it you won't make much money but at least you can make a living so this is already very limited so until these you know seats kind of become free there's a wait, I guess so it's this is a fact so it's not you can apply for you know being a record label boss in Switzerland every month so in the end it's I mean the record labels that exist are founded by either musicians or people who want to work in the industry so most time you’re self-employed or you're how do you say an entre-preneur so you kind of start your own business you know and I mean I'm not sure about numbers there or anything but I'm pretty sure when you check into startups I think the percentage of men you know founding a startup compared to women must be higher that's what I reckon I guess that's when I mean I read and talk a lot about this that's al-ways something that comes pretty early it's a high risk involvement women don't do high risk you know women need more financial stability women of course you know when having a family later on or afraid of the you know the impact the job will have if is it going to be possible to combine I mean it's still a very male driven you know industry environ-ment it's changing but it's changing since a couple of years so it's not and I think what you see what you see when you know the public display of Swiss Music Awards or what-ever it's really it's a lot of men so role models of course are always a thing so there need to be more role models but I think there also needs to be the you don't have to go to run to every festival and to you know drink gin and tonics all night etc. to do the job and it's not you know you can't totally combine it with family you have to if you love networking if you love to make the bridge between the artist and the audience it's really for me it's real-ly something that's very female you know it's I mean most of the women I know can do that well they can structure they can you know communicate they can so I don't see why it's always yeah talked about it's high risk it's like you know we have to know about finance and digitalization about I mean yeah it's cool if you do that too but it's not yeah exactly I mean it's I don't think it's the core of the thing so yes there should be more wom-en and I think we're very how do you say like well equipped to do that job I love that you've said that and let's make this a call to action Call to Arms you know if you're a woman if you identify as a woman if you're FINTA let's get you in these roles and I you know role models I think you're a role model I think you're somebody that people can look to and see that you're in the industry you're doing the job you've got great relationships and like you said you've got a family and you're balancing it or your work is part of who you are and if people have seen things like that as a barrier to entry balancing family life and that sort of thing I hope that they can look to you and as an example of somebody who is making it work so thank you thank you very much for being here your existence in this industry okay let's move on to our audience question we have a question from @lindawolf let's hear what she has to say what increases my chances to being signed by a label nowa-days and what is the advantage of being signed is it even worth reaching out to a label as a newcomer so the first part of the question is so what can I do to raise my chances to being signed by a label that's a good question I never thought about this from this you know from an artist's perspective what can I do to raise my chances usually bands just reach out you know they're okay I have a I have a record I if I wanna if they want to be on a label that's always there is always an if they probably just go on the internet and look at who's there and who does what and who has what styles of music etc. and sends emails I haven't really talked to artists who told me I did specifically this or that to then reach out to labels so in my eyes it's really just write your music you know record demos whatever send mixes whatever stage of musical production you have and if you have something a short text or a press shot or artwork or a history of shows you played attach that and just introduce yourself if in the end if the music is convincing it doesn't need to be more I mean we've had artists just sending us you know three demo songs without any additional information and it was so amazing you know that you just got in touch and then got to know the person and then you of course you get to know what's behind so that's super interesting though because I think a lot of people think there could be a for-mula am I doing it right am I reaching out in the right way is there like Linda saying what could increase the chances you know is it should I be you know sending multiple emails or should I you know I think people are looking for a formula almost but really what you're saying is it comes down to the music. Yes but I mean when you present it that way there's a few rules okay all right let's do a lot do not attach you know MP4 WAV files whatever you know big files they don't get through do not send emails with big files send a stream SoundCloud even Dropbox links etc work fine do not just send out like you know an im-personal email to 100 addresses and say dear sir dear madam whatever so I need to know your name well not necessarily but at least say dear team of Irasible or you know something that kind of makes you feel okay you were meant you know to be the recipi-ent of this email yeah and also what I would really do is like you know make your re-search it's like for me it's like if you look for a new apartment you know you have your crite-ria you know how much you can pay you know etc. so same look for a label check out who signed on that label where are they based what you know what's what do they offer you know bands writing us for if we can book them you know it's just I don't even get back to them because we don't do booking and it's not it's not displayed anywhere on the website so do your research make it personal don't send large attachments I think then it's fine and then if the music is good it doesn't matter what you write That's The Sweet Spot there get your good music so what about the advantage of being signed there's not a label doing a thing so it's can be if you some bands want to be on a label because they like the roster you know they want to be in company of this and that band who's sighned on that label too so you know they think they can probably also profit from the success of these bands which is of course not totally stupid it happens you know some bands want to have someone who has yeah has a big network has a big reach some-one wants to have support like financial support there's label collectives like a Red Brick and you know labels who are kind of built from by and around artists themselves so they want to be a network of artists also kind of setting their own rules when it comes to how to release records so there's multiple ways just find out where you belong and what you need what you're you know what where do you have a deficit what maybe you're great writing your own press text but then you need someone you know sending it out to the right people so it just maybe you only need a PR agency maybe you don't even need a label etc. so that is so good to know it's really kind of maybe taking yourself out of your headspace for a moment and looking objectively at your project and what you like you say what you need where's the deficit and then decide who to reach out to then decide like you said it could be just a PR agency that you need or it could be it could be a label it could be exactly something else and it's really hard to do that on your own often espe-cially if you're a solo artist so if you have someone you know another musician someone who works in the field of music just someone neutral who's not in your project and some-times it helps to kind of find out where you are and what you might need and what not absolutely the third part of the question is it even worth it reaching out to a label as a newcomer what would you say to that yes absolutely also of course depends on what the level of involvement is you wish the label wishes to have it's worth it yes I mean there's that's I mean so many newcomers are signed on labels are looking for newcomers all the time I mean that's what that's the job of a label basically finding good new artists finding newcomers and that's I mean that's then in the end the what makes a label a good la-bel you know finding that the ones that you think could succeed and the ones that they think could reach a bigger audience etc. so yes reach out that's incredible advice thank you so much I think also because having that sort of label representation is almost like a sign of success in a way I think a lot of artists see it as oh what I've made it now somebody else believes in this project and somebody's on my team and now I'm on a label oh yeah do you know when you see that kind of that social media post and they're sitting down signing a contract I mean it's they're kind of like yes I’m here now. Keep going on your project but and keep reaching out even if you might not get a yes or or you might not get a response it's still worth reaching out to labels because labels are still looking you said are still looking for new artists yes like yes 100 to reach out and even if you get rejected that's the last thing I want to say even if it get rejected try it again and if you do get rejected and you want to know why just ask you know I would never say I don't like it because of this and that but if the artist comes back to me and tells me so why do you say no then I give a feedback and it can if it if you want to know then I'll tell you and then but then you also have to live with it oh insightful conversation thank you so much thank you very much If you want to join the Helvetiarockt community or find out more check out the website, sign up for the newsletter and follow us on social media. If you'd to support Helvetiarockt you can also become a member or donate and if you what you heard today please share it with your friends. Helvetiarockt Musicians in Conversation is a concept by Natalia Anderson in collabora-tion with Helvetiarockt. It's presented and produced by Natalia Anderson music is by Jackie Brutsche and The Jackets.